LeftExchange
Feedback by Jerre
A further feedback to Steve
Red, Steve
Debating with Steve is of the type:
Protests in Indonesia and elsewhere!!! Steve: Ahh, you didn’t see it on tv so it’s not true! Only a fool would think that people who die in protests from police bullets aren’t being executed! LOL!
Zimbabwe!!! Sure... you might just “get away with it”! What kind of freedom of speech are you talking about, anyway? What a ridiculous statement! You don’t just get away with freedom of speech! Why don’t you just get on a plane and fly over and talk to the locals about it! Maybe get a little protest going in good old Zimbabwe. I’m sure you’d last a long time. an interesting example of the conditions in a terror state.
Drugs!!! Took me all of 30 seconds to find a link to a Scandinavian source for news. Here’s one little article. Maybe if you used the sources you have available more efficiently you’d be able to speak more intelligently about these things instead of just dismissing them out of hand because they don’t fit your little world.
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/archive/drugfacts/ "The magnitude of the drug problem in this country is enormous," says Barry McCaffrey, director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy within the White House, the coordination point for the many U.S. government programs that attempt to deal with one or another aspect of the problem. According to McCaffrey, drugs are responsible for the deaths of 52,000 Americans a year, and the cost of the problem adds up to $110 billion a year. ......" Compare please to what is written on:
Franco and northern mountains!!! Excuse me...I’ve had to listen to every encounter the US has ever had. Franco did actually die in your lifetime, Jerre. And if you were to speak up against him while he was alive you would be imprisoned or die or both. And the people of the Pyrenees have always been a problem for Spain’s government as any minor history buff would know. They’re not a big thorn in anyone’s side, but that wasn’t the point. They have never liked listening to the main government of Spain. Not a major deal in the context of the other countries were speaking of. Don’t even have to watch TV for that one, Jerre. And while I don’t have a niece across the border I’m sure that I wouldn’t take one persons opinion as the word on anything! Again, I was under the impression that we discussed present conditions and not history! But yes, it wasn´t healthy to speak up against Franco, just like it was unhealthy to speak up against Joe McCommieater. Death or imprisonment was however not a certain consequence in either case. And in northern Spain are the ETA who are not deprived of free speech at all but are seeking complete independence and in that pursuit is using terror. Does this mean that we should consider northern Spain undemocratic? NYC? Btw, I can assure you that ETA is a MAJOR thorn in the side of the rulers in Madrid!
Freedom of speech in Budapest!!! Not beside any point, Jerre. Freedom and human rights don’t live in a country called Hungary! Not after so many years of Soviet rule. Not yet anyways. Are you an expert on Soviet rule?? I have been in Poland and East Germany in 1968. I have been in Russia in -72. I travelled through Bulgaria and Yugoslavia in -76 all during communist rule. No problem! I have a brother-in-law, who is married to a Bulgarian, and has travelled the route Austria, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria an awful lot of times during the last years and has given a lot of info about it. I live with a lady who was born in East Germany and lived there all the time until -96 and have seen the changes for the better AND worse take place in -91! Where does your info come from?
Kathmandu, India, Kairo!!! I see! So these examples don’t fit anymore so let’s dismiss them. LOL! Let’s see. Hmmm...I guess the Tibetian’s are free if you consider 50 years of occupation freedom. My dear Steve, if I had meant a Tibetian city I would of course have mentioned Lhasa and not Kathmandu which, as we all know, is the capital of Nepal!!! LOL? Tibet is under Chinese rule. Enough said! I guess the people of India are free if you consider being born into a society that considers some of it’s people as nothing but slave workers. The 50% Americans that don´t take part in the democratic process are other than slaves to the system?? All those who have to have two jobs to survive because of lousy pay are anything but slaves???? I supposes you could even consider Cairo free as long as you fit into it’s fundamentalist ruling class template. I guess it’s all in your perspective, isn’t it, Jerre. Yes isn´t it? You like to make these countries sound like pillars WHAT BLOODY TIME DID I SAY PILLAR?????? I pointed out in all humbleness that there exist other places that allow liberty and those things you counted in your first piece! of freedom when the truth is they aren’t even close to meeting basic humans rights. You call freedom of speech being able to run around wearing nothing but ashes. The reality of that statement is that there isn’t anyone who gives a damn to stop you and ask if you need help or are all right. There isn’t anywhere for that poor soul to go for help or to get a meal or seek mental health aid. But you somehow see this as a good thing! and again I haven´t said anything of the kind.
Stalin, Moscow, Indians!!! Again I must protest the fact that I have heard all about America’s terrible past and considering that I don’t even have to go back all that far to get to some incredibly tragic events in an awfully lot of the countries you listed. I find it amazing that “current” history isn’t supposed to enter into anyone else’s portfolio! How do you determine current liberty-status by entering the last 50 years of history? As far as I can see you have to decide on a specific time to decide such a matter. How one sided can you get! Your arguments are either un-informed or you choose to act ignorant for the purpose of your own point. At least when I make a point, whether I lay out my sources or not I am not speculating or assuming anything. You speak of 150 years ago when you talk about the indians of my country, I speak of this century when I speak of Europe’s atrocities. I speak of now when I speak of India’s horrific traditions. I speak of now when I speak of Afghani women put to death for being educated. Wake up. Do you think every piece of editorial or documentary TV in the world is fake? I listen carefully, oh humble one!
Little men, Wealth and poverty!!! What a load. Hitler was because of who? Franco? Mussolini? Almost all of the African third world countries leaders? The Shah? Marcos? Suharto? Pinochet? Somoza? Get off the high horse, man. Our wealth is built on our countries ability to out produce any other country in the world. And then to turn around and sell those good to any other country in the world we choose to sell them to. I would say your wealth is also based on the mighty $ and buying up half the world, enforcing your rules in trade, safe-guarding your companies all over etc etc. Period.
Drug money, Maffia!!! Absolutely true. My point is quite simple. You speak as if we’re the only country in the world with problems. No! YOU speak as if other countries are the only ones that have problems! The Russian Mafia is a fact! Where there’s drugs there is drug money. How simple should I make this for you. If you need to see how it relates to freedom of speech go back and read the rest of the feedbacks. Crime is crime no matter where you go. It is all over the world, Jerre. Look around your own back yard. Oh we have a problem alright, and if we just pulled in all of our foreign aid and got back all the money we’ve loaned overseas and funded our police forces and our drug awareness and recovery programs with it we might make some progress on fixing it. But that would leave too many starving and helpless people in the world so we can’t very well do that now can we, Jerre!!!! See above and look at:
Protesting!!! Actually that’s wrong and cynical as hell! Being ignored because there is no government that cares or even in place to notice when you’ve gone crazy from hunger or have no where to live isn’t really the same as being free! And frankly having seen one of the world’s great conflicts of my time (Viet Nam) being eventually stopped because of the rank and file American protesting in the streets proves you wrong. In America as in other countries it may take time to get something going but it is also possible to see it through to the end. Vietnam was the last time Americans woke up to their government´s lies. And the military learnt some lessons. That´s why Pentagon is terrified to tell even of a broken toe among their troops in this disaster. And don´t forget you took over from the French and did a beautiful job of escalating it over all S-E Asia!
Afghans killed!!! I have heard of several hundred civilians being injured or killed. Apparently you have sources much closer to the battlefield and would hopefully share those sources with us. Independent sources in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Europe (BBC, Guardian, Independent, ARD, ZDF, Aftonbladet, ETC), usually report 2-5000 fatalities among the civilians so far. NOT counting the consequenses of the interrupted food deliveries and increased refugee-figures which might run into the 10.000 or more. Considering that those brave Taliban soldiers were hiding, (chuckle)HIDING in the houses of the people they were supposed to be defending I can readily see how this might happen. Soldiers are soldiers whether they have uniforms or not. The battle was engaged with the Taliban because they are defenders of bin ladin. They brought it on themselves and could have quit at anytime. Now who is Naive?? My guess is that if there was any bloody houses still standing in that poor country the military as always commendeered them.
End of war?!!! Yup. Ain’t life great! The bastard laughs at all the death and the stupidity of his own followers. I suppose you’re one of those who doesn’t believe that that last tape of him is real? It all stops when the almighty bin ladin gets his. I loved watching George the other day when asked about bin ladin. His reply gave me shivers. “I don’t care! Dead or alive. Either way!” Go George! Yeah. One must be impressed that the "leader of the world" already works as accuser, judge and executioner. Such "dead or alive" stuff is normally frowned upon in civilized states.
Chomsky!!! If there is no mainstream audience should we require the TV stations to air him anyway. This stuff cost money, Jerre. Who’s going to pay? You? Are you one of those who feels that because you like it everyone should have it? I’d like to see a little George Winston. Why don´t you dare to look the truth in the eyes?? Anyone can see that a Professor at MIT who is of enough interest to merit airtime of one hour in Canada, Britain, Australia, Sweden, Germany, and other places must be of more interest to his own countrymen! Chomsky is CENSORED by the main outlets in US and you better understand it!
Unprepared for war??? That’s right. No problem with that. The key word I think is “defense”.
Sati and circumcision!!! Illegal and currently practiced are two different things. We’re not talking about government policies to cover their asses. We’re talking about educating people and actually stopping traditions as horrific as those mentioned. And the argument belongs here because India is a country where you mention several cities as being bastions of free speech. Not true when you are born into a caste system. I´m getting bloody tired of your adding "bastions of" and "Pillar of" to my statements! Please refrain! None of the things you mention are tradition of any sort! It happens just like a lot of things happen in American culture that are against the law. Do you want to enter all illegal activities that take place more than once a week in US or other places into the discussion??
World pollution!!! Actually correct! The US accounts for 50% of all air pollutants. But the rest come from Europe and third world countries. Sorry pal …you remember wrong. No, I remember better than I thought: UN figures from -96 say following: USA (c:a 5% of the world´s population) is responsible for c:a 25% of total world emissions from cars and industry into the atmosphere (ex: emissions of CO2 in -95, US 20,5 metric tons per capita, EU 7,9, China 2,7, India 1,0.). That´s what is termed Greenhouse gasses, GHG. Your figures are vague to say the least.
Selling tools of death!!! Sorry again, Jerre. We are a free society and as such we can sell our goods (for the most part) to anyone we want. Why would a free society have such government control on the sale of goods produced freely? (OK, let´s allow Heroin, Cokain and Marihuana??) And again I ask what about France and Germany and Japan? I’ll bet there are some of those really neato Swedish jets made by Saab out there in the world doing something not so savory right now! Of course you can sell, and you do! Which might be what some people think is wrong! Why don´t you sell nukes to others also? Isn´t that even freeer?? Or there are some limits? As a Swede who has seen his country allow a few times too many the selling of SAMs and grenade-launchers (so far the Saab fighters have ended up in "respectable" countries) to undesirables and some producers like Bofors and FMV smuggling out products when stopped by the government´s no-decision, I am aware of the problems of selling arms. If you read Anthony Sampson´s excellent book "The arms bazaar" you too might understand the problems of arming the world and resisting regulation. But feel free to be under illusions for the time being!
Jerre
...............
Synergy Home
Black, Jerre
Jerre states: Objects 1, 2, 3 and 4 are green!
Steve: You are completely wrong! Number 1 was square until 1995, #2 weighs 58 grams too much, #3 is owned by a former commie and #4 is of a sort I dislike!
You sound as though you are a “part time” political activist! There are reports of some demonstrators being shot when demonstrations got out of hand in Pakistan. Same things can and have happened in Genua, in Gothenburg and in USA when protests run too wild. Do you deny that protesters have been shot in US? Do you deny that people have gotten killed by police bullets without having been put on trial (Waco and some other incidents come to mind)?? Do you therefore conclude that in the matter of freedom "when you speak up in US, you die"??
http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?o=portal&h=Search+results+for...+drug+problem&query=drug+problem Those laughing in either Norway or Denmark are just stoned, Jerre!
http://www.state.gov/www/global/narcotics_law/1997_narc_report/europ97_part4.html
and then stop being silly. Drugs are a problem all over!!
http://www.state.gov/www/global/narcotics_law/1997_narc_report/europ97_part4.html
And it’s what I expect from my government. So when the little insane men come a knock knock knocking we can kick the living crap out of them. And they always seem to come don’t they, Jerre? NO! They don´t come. Stop kidding yourself! They are invited, or engineered but always welcome by the military and the bosses. If you read your history properly you have started all wars you have been involved in in the last 50 years.