LeftExchange
Where is your line in the sand by Steve Hopkins
Steve original piece: regular text
I find your piece to be the only sensible one amongst all the male testosterone. It’s amazing the difference in attitude one can find in almost all animal species between sexes. Especially, the human animal. It doesn’t make you any less passionate, but more compassionate!
I write from your country Steve (see "Back at ya Jerre" for this quote: "...you sit around in your 'little' country and try to make hash of mine. Not gonna happen!") and argue many of the same points that Jerre (and eric and Mike) does. Particularly about these freedoms and our wealth of which you speak.
It was never my intent to compare anything. Only to state certain givens. As I felt attacked for my expressions and forced to defend my position. We as a country must, when under attack, defend ourselves. If the manner in which this is happening is unconventional it is because the enemy itself is very much the same.
I’m sure it seems quite strange even to our own soldiers to be doing what they are doing in the manner in which they are doing it. BUT, I would not in anyway discount what they are doing and have the same thing happen as to our soldiers in Viet Nam and the shabby way they were treated when they returned home.
However, neither conclusion is a reason to be static. We need to continually question our policies, the effect they have at home and abroad and as an educated bunch, we need to lead the pack in terms of advocating positive, thoughtful change. We cannot rest on our laurels (of which I am skeptical in many ways).
Do you truly not believe that our wealth is based on many other’s poverty? Since you cannot respond as I write I will move on to another part of this discussion on our wealth.
You are correct, we must question our policies. I think it is a day late and a dollar short to be doing this after something like Sept 11. Where were all the voices when all the things that pissed off old bin ladin were going on? Why is it that everyone seems to have such great hind sight and feels the need to scream at the worst time possible. Do it in your elections. Do it in your e-mail. Do it in your community. In the system very carefully set up to allow you to change the world you live in. All the time. Now, tomorrow, next year. It angers me to hear someone say they’re not gonna clean up my mess. LOL. That’s pompousness of the enth degree. I was handed a world as dirty and unhealthy as your generation. I haven’t been able to do a lot by myself, but have always gotten on anyone else’s bandwagon to make the world a better place. My next car will be a hybrid. I recycle all the time. I write letters to manufacturers when I find their packaging to be excessive. I have used solar power. I am a voice and I intend to be heard. When I join with many voices I assure that I am heard. This is EVERYONE’S responsibility. Whether you think you had nothing to do with it, if you’re alive, you helped to cause the problem.
"Our wealth is built on our countries ability to out produce any other country in the world. And then to turn around and sell those good to any other country in the world we choose to sell them to."
Absolutely. Walk into any department store and look at all the choices. What a load of crap that is. How about one product made well by one company. Why 12 or 20 choices of anything? Why so many types and models of cars? They all do the same thing, (poorly). What is it in our nature that needs to change this need to have so many inane “things” to choose from. I was driving home the other night from work and stopped at a light. In the back of the car in front of me was a “turkey deep fryer”. LOL. Who the hell thought of this one? He ought to go to prison. What a useless contraption that is. 50% is the current estimation of the US contribution to world pollution as of this years EPA statements. While that sucks it is a number most of us didn’t ever hear before we became aware of the increasing dangers of this problem. Many of us have made strides in helping reduce that number by recycling, driving less, buying more fuel efficient cars and keeping them running better. My point is that change regardless of how important comes slowly and inexorably if it is coaxed along. It will take your generation and many more to turn this thing around. To inform the world and scare them in to making the necessary changes to make our world a healthier place to be. Being a radical environmentalist carries no weight when applied with force. It must be applied with finesse and every victory measured in inches instead of miles. But there must be consistency and purpose that doesn’t waiver. This will accomplish more than all the bombs in the world.
Of course we aid countries with big drug and human rights problems – they have money and resources and WE WANT THEM!
Again you’re right. You live in a capitalist country, it’s what we do!
As for Noam Chomsky and others like him, I question your logic. Is it that there is no audience for him or that people just passively accept what they are shown on TV? Was there an audience crying out for Temptation Island to show before it aired? Are people crying out for more sitcoms like "Inside Schwartz"? With the amount of channels there are it seems likely that there is room for Dr. Chomsky. But there are people who do not want him heard. As there were people who did not want Ralph Nader heard in the last election. He was the wild card and I know that many people would have listened and at least seriously considered what he had to say – if they had been able to hear him! I know this smacks of "conspiracy theories" so I will preemptively defend that argument with these quotes from "The Beauty Myth" by Naomi Wolf:
I find it interesting that you all feel that TV networks and cable companies and the like are conspiring to keep this kind of stuff off the airwaves. I think the shows you listed are a good example of how wrong that is. These are stupid useless shows that even the biggest couch potato finds boring and offensive after not too long. A lot of these idiocies are being canceled quickly and without anyone missing them. It just shows how uniformed and truly ignorant TV execs really are. They have made so many blunders with reality TV and others and have had to back away from most of the new stupid shows. Fortunately in my area our cable company is replacing the stupid stuff with National Geographic and the like. Again, I must state that TV is a for profit arena. Let the philosophers show a profit and see how quickly they get prime time. Have any of you wrote to the Networks requesting Dr. Chomsky?
In this way, those in power know when something is being said that hurts their game. They do not have to meet together (the media moguls – all 6 of them!; the oil guys; the CEOs) and plan to squelch speakers such as Noam and Ralph – they just react to something threatening by keeping it quiet. Or by calling these people reactionaries or radicals – all the words that keep people who think differently from being truly free in the U.S. Heck – at this point they/I can be seen as a terrorist or a threat to National Security. Will there be a rule requiring National Unity and National Patriotism soon?
Keep reading the papers, Care. Almost everything that was taken away has been revised or revamped. Do you think that people raised on freedom can be so easily fooled? Do you believe that people out there in the rest of the country “aren’t” at least as smart as you? There are millions of people stirring restlessly and calling and writing their congressmen. You should be doing the same and I hope you are. All societies are changeable. The question should be what is it we want changed?
Before closing, I would like to respond to a couple specific points you raise:
It is not up to the government to do this. I don’t think they should get involved unless you and many like you TELL them to. Don’t you think they are already out of hand as it is? Why ask them to control more on their own? I wouldn’t think you’d want that. It’s up to us to watch our government not the other way around. So keep informed and make the noise that should be made at the time it needs to be made and things can be done under your control and not the governments. Look at what happened to Wal-Mart! As a parent I expected you to drive with responsibility. If you were to fail you wouldn’t drive my car again. You knew that. Governmental officials should know that they will be voted out of office and even held criminally responsible for their actions. That’s up to all of us. So what needs to be done to effect that kind of change. Could it be education, rabbit?
And "I am the only one who can humble me!"
See my statements about karate’.
I do not include myself in this group. I do not believe in revenge or vengeance. These are unhealthy motives. I also do not believe that our government is waging war for these reasons or that they will stop once the "target" has been hit.
Seeing others suffer will not bring back the trust we had before 9/11, will not bring back the people who were lost, will not bring closure nor will it make the world a better place. And if it doesn’t do any of that, then aren’t we just killing people because we can?
But do you believe in justice? Punishment for criminal acts is an acceptable social practice. Having been in the criminal judicial system for a short while you know what it’s all about. The bigger the crime the bigger the punishment is how it’s supposed to work. I don’t believe that anyone wants to see innocent people suffer. I do believe the Al Quida are an army and have declared war through their acts on America. This leads me back to my earlier statements about defending one’s country. I am not one who would nuke the whole country, but I do require my country to defend our peace and to keep us safe. I believe that is what’s being done. Some innocents may die. I am truly sorry for this. I pray that it will not happen. I know that it will. I believe we must proceed to a conclusion that keeps Americans safe, regardless of the time or energy involved. I don’t like it but I do see it as necessary. I know there is no talking with people of bin ladin’s type.
Cary's "From Within": Red
Steve most recent response: BOLD
My answer to your piece is as follows.
I have included your piece as reference.
Seems to me we can compare countries forever and in some ways we will come out on top and in other we will undoubtedly be the worst.
This war, like the Viet Nam war is unique in it’s goals and it methods of operation and therefor must seem very unusual to many people. So be it. I repeat my first and foremost thought on all this. When insane little men try to rule the world, people die. Not just Americans, all nationalities. This can never be tolerated by a free and peace loving society.
When you were in karate’ you were taught to never ever start a fight. You were taught to run away if you could. You were taught to defend yourself as a last resort. BUT to defend yourself as a last resort to the end! You were taught that those same qualities were to be directed toward others who could not defend themselves. When you saw an injustice you were to use your powers of self defense to either defuse the situation or remove the victim from the situation, or to defend that person, even a stranger, to the very end of your ability to do so. Even to your own death. This was a code of honor you were taught. That code of honor isn’t even an American one, although we as Americans have leaned very heavily on it. It is an ancient code of honor. One that you will find in many
Asian and European cultures. This is where this defense of America comes from. This is where the real feeling of this whole terrorist war comes from.
Wealth being evil is a truly communist perspective. We all see how well that little experiment worked out. Just because people don’t have, doesn’t mean they should be angry about it. I’m really sorry when I look at all the people I know who don’t have health insurance or don’t feel they can afford other life niceties or necessities. But does that make wealth or the pursuit of a good living evil or not worth pursuing? I think not. It’s ones perspective of that process that bends the view. Looking up at the so called good life all the time give one a pain in the neck. The truly intelligent person learns what’s really important isn’t money at all. Does that mean everyone should see it that way? Nope. This is America and as such we all have the right to our own dreams and ways of life. The old American dream is long dead. It will never be revived. So move one and make the world a better place and live in it the way you wish to. But remember this includes letting others live the way they would like. Either way we must all be responsible. For ourselves and others. Like it or not it is the only way we, and that includes all of us, will survive.
OK. Let’s start with this jumping off point. We do out produce others. So much so that we have irrevocably harmed our forests, animals, air quality, ozone layer, oceans… and much of our human spirit. Everything revolves around this wealth – producing, advertising, buying, selling. Our government cares more about corporations and the economy than the people and we get involved with other countries when it financially benefits us. Even if we all agree that the U.S. is responsible for ONLY! 50% of the world’s pollution, doesn’t this speak of our great folly – our self-involvement – our overconsumption?!?! There is no option here – we have to change!
On the government and the economy: It is the governments job to help the country maintain a healthy economy. They do this in many ways. Some are good, some not so good. Involvement with corporations is, whether we like it or not necessary when the good of the people is a concern. I know this sounds goody two shoed, but the reality is that many times a company needs or wants something from the government and without it many people may lose their jobs or a plant may move or some other nasty little thing will happen. It’s actually the government’s job to try to see that those bad things don’t happen. The way that’s done is not always the best way. The reality is that some of those things actually come to good and not bad. Chrysler was bailed out by the government, made a complete comeback and paid back the money with interest ahead of time. It saved thousands of jobs and was actually a good thing even though no one thought so at the time.
Overall though you are right sweeping changes need to be made.
"This is not a conspiracy theory; it doesn’t have to be."
"A backlash against (ecological changes, capitalism, etc) doesn’t happen in a smoke-filled room; it is often unconscious and reflexive, like racism. (This) backlash is not an organized conspiracy with maps and pins, but a generalized atmosphere..." (italicized portions and parentheses added)
"Why would a free society have such government control on the sale of goods produced freely?"
To be responsible. We have the ability to export a great amount and various types of products but with this ability comes responsibility to not cause greater harm. We take freedom to mean free reign but we have all heard that "with great freedom comes great responsibility". As a parent you know that when you allowed me to drive the car without supervision you didn’t mean that I could do whatever I wanted! I needed to drive safely and be aware of the other people on the road and be careful of my passengers – particularly when those passengers with your other children!
This may be true. As "Americans" we need humbling. One would think that what happened on 9/11 would be humbling because it demonstrated the frailty of the human condition (American or not) and jarred us into seeing how people around the world view us (as Americans). But instead we have used it as a weapon against others? Why? Because "many Americans like me don’t give a damn. Yet. We haven’t received our vengeance or brought justice to the perpetrators. When we do you’ll see a change and things will once again settle down."
Have you seen the tapes that show him boasting? What are your feelings about that? Would you have let the Japanese off the hook at Pearl Harbor? Would you have let the Germans off the hook at the camps? Where is your line in the sand?